Ever have those moments when you realize there is so much you don’t know about something? I get so frustrated sometimes when I believe I have an opinion about something and then I realize I don’t have all the facts and then when I try to LEARN all the facts it turns out there are WAY TOO MANY facts and opinions and I just can’t learn it all!!!!! AUGH!
So, this is one of those times.
You saw that coming though, right? 🙂
The story of what I don’t know starts with a confession. I worked in pet stores that sold dogs for about 5 years when I was much younger. I started as a sales person when I was 18 or 19 because the pups were so cute and it was a fun job. I’d had dogs and horses all my life and I missed being around animals. In less than a year I was managing a store. The thing was, I believed what I was told about where the animals came from. I was fed a whole line about the distributor that sent us dogs and cats from the midwest and how they got them from good breeders. I guess I was too young or naive to realize what a crock that was. My main rationalization for working there though was “if I don’t do it, someone else will and they won’t care about the animals as much I do.” Seriously, the animal care in my stores was over the top. We spent as much cuddle time and exercise time with the dogs as we could. We kept them all as clean, healthy, socialized and exercised as you CAN in that environment. Looking back now though, I can see how far from ideal even our best efforts were. Plus, some of thing things we were doing were compounding their bad start of being born in puppy mills; we were over-vaccinating them (of course, I didn’t realize that at the time) and overutilizing antibiotics when they were ill. And even with all the care and attention we tried to give them, that just is NOT where a puppy belongs in the developmental stages of its life.
In my defense, I tried mightily to discourage impulse purchases and also made sure everyone that worked for me knew as much about the different breeds as possible so we could avoid matching the wrong dog with a customer. Unfortunately when a retail establishment offers something for sale, they can’t then REFUSE to sell it! I did refuse to sell to a couple of people over the years because they were intoxicated, but, other than that, all we could do was try to convince people they were making the wrong decision if we felt like they shouldn’t be buying that particular dog.
I placed puppies and kittens that couldn’t be sold (sometimes with myself or other employees, but most often with regular customers and other pet owners that we knew). At first, we would RETURN animals to the distributor if they turned out to have a congenital defect, but somewhere along the way we got smart and started demanding credit for non-saleable animals and placing them in good homes instead of sending them back.
You’d think with all that going on, I would have realized the deal, but I didn’t. You don’t know what you don’t know.
I once bought a cat from my employer because the breeder/distributor wouldn’t give us credit for it without a DEATH CERTIFICATE. He had a terrible URI and was going to take a long time to get better. The company vet said the meds to cure him would ruin his kidneys, so he was going to euthanize him instead of treating him. I bought the cat at cost, kept him in the store, and treated him myself (with store meds, with their approval). He was a red tabby Persian. I named him Aslan and he grew into a gorgeous, happy cat. Aslan lived to be about seven years old and THEN died of kidney failure.
So, anyway, fast forward to a couple years ago. My daughter was finally old enough for the dog she’d wanted all her life and we were finally living in a dog-friendly apartment. I knew not to go to a pet store and that there are lots of less-than-responsible breeders in the world. ~T~ and I discussed getting a shelter dog, but I was afraid for her first dog to possibly have unknown health and/or behavioral issues. I couldn’t bring myself to take the chance. At the time, I didn’t know about rescue organizations that use foster homes and evaluate dogs so they can be placed appropriately. It never even crossed my mind to wonder about such a thing. You don’t know what you don’t know.
So, we went with what we DID know. We spent four months reading and researching breeds to figure out what type of dog would fit best into our lifestyle and environment. Then we spent another SIX MONTHS looking for a responsible breeder with a male Shiba puppy available. I talked to a number of breeders that I wasn’t happy with. ~T~ was like “can we please just get a dog already?” but we talked about market forces, supply and demand, and how our money should go to someone who tries to do the best job they can, especially when it comes to animals. We kept looking and we eventually found Snickers.
Fast forward a couple more years. I’m blogging about Snick and reading other blogs and I run across a journal by someone that runs a local rescue organization. She blogs about the successes and the frustrations of rescue work, the animals, the people… I was inspired to learn more about the plight of unwanted animals in NYC and elsewhere. I started telling anyone who would listen how many dogs and cats are euthanized in NYC every day. I talked to people about getting rescues instead of purchasing puppies. A lot of my thinking about companion animals changed.
My sister is involved in a volunteer transport organization (Drive for Life) that helps transport dogs from kill shelters to no-kill shelters, foster homes, and forever homes all across the country, so that became another piece of new knowledge.
I learned that there are breed specific rescue organizations, usually run by breeders and other breed fanciers. There are several regional Shiba rescue organizations. My next dog will definitely be a rescue – almost certainly another Shiba, but a rescue. I’m learning so much – good and bad. But still, you just don’t know what you don’t know.
Forward to present day (well, last week actually, but you know what I mean). I’m reading the rescue person’s blog and she starts condemning breeders. Her logic is that every animal purposefully brought into the world, displaces an animal in a shelter waiting for a home, or eventually ends up in a shelter itself. This is reasonable logic. ~T~ and I have talked a few times lately about the dilemma of regulating breeding/breeders – how do you stop the large, commercial breeders without stopping the responsible breeders? How do you stop people from mating their cute family dog with the dog across town? And, while we’re at it, how do we educate people to spay and neuter their pets? So, anyway, with this conversation going on in my mind, I proceeded to comment on the blog regarding breeding.
(Add into the mix of thoughts in my head the fact that I recently joined a mailing list for Shiba Inu owners and it has a number of breeders, fanciers, handlers, and trainers on it that I have learned a lot from and have a lot of respect for.)
What I thought was going to be an informed, adult conversation about how to fix a problem turned into something very different. The rescue blogger was not just against puppy mills and backyard breeders, but ALL breeders and another commenter and I were basically lambasted for discussing responsible breeding. I was planning to include a sampling of the posts and comments here but going back to the original blog to read through it stalled me and I decided not to do it. She would argue with us and question us and when we would answer, she would ignore what we were trying to say. Suffice to say, two of us end up leaving because the conversation was so one sided. I noticed when I went back today that a new commenter came along a couple days ago with good things to say about responsible breeders participating in rescue and supporting veterinary research, etc., but her comments have apparently been ignored so far also.
So, the title of this post was “When You Realize What You Don’t Know.” What I don’t know is… the answers. I didn’t know there was a problem. A dilemma. Now I do, but I don’t know the answers and I don’t know how to find them. I know that I care deeply about animals in general. I have a lot of compassion for the unwanted animals that die every day. Stories of mistreated animals are jarring when I look at my sweet, spoiled little Snickers. I don’t want animals to be hurt or die. I also don’t want breeds to die out or people to not have a choice about the animals they add to their family. I know education is KEY. I know companion animals should be spayed and neutered. How do you legislate something like that though? Can you? And how do you hamper commercial breeders without over-regulating responsible breeders*? And what about the suburban housewife that wants her kids to see “the miracle of life?” Or the people who breed Pits to fight and then dump the ones they can’t make mean? How do you write fair laws that single them out and stop them?
So, now I know what I don’t know. And it frustrates me.
*We attemped to define responsible breeders a few times on this other blog and were ignored. Our definition was basically “breeders that breed selectively and seldom, that breed for the best traits of their breed, that do genetic testing, have low coefficients of inbreeding, participate in rescue, have spay/neuter contracts, and take back any dog that can’t be kept.”
I’d go so far as to say NO inbreeding. Otherwise, I agree with your definition. GREAT post!
it makes me so sad to think of all those breeders just in it for the money. and all those poor animals (both cats and dogs) that won’t get good homes.
thanks for dropping by my place. 🙂
This topic is VERY topical for me, as I was nearly sucked in by a pet store two weeks ago. I actually put a deposit down on a dog and rescinded it the next day after researching the “breeder” they got it from and it turns out they are a giant resale outfit in Missouri (where many of the puppy mills are) and they churn out puppies to pet stores all over the country. GAG.
I had fallen in love with this cute little Italian Greyhound, but couldn’t bear to perpetuate this system, and so unhappily, cancelled my purchase of the dog. I think I made the right decision. Had the dog been from a legitimate (and traceable) individual breeder, I might have gone ahead and gotten the dog.
Ideally I think pet stores should have animals that come from local breeders and aren’t yanked away from their mothers prematurally. The pet store could give the breeders rights to sell the dogs also, but if the pet store sold them they would earn a commission. Because no matter what anybody says, there are people who just don’t want to go to the trouble of finding a breeder, despite wanting a purebred dog, and there are others, like me, who sometimes have days where the hormones are stronger than the common sense.
I have looked for breeders for several months now, and finally found a couple that look promising. I believe I made the right decision in not purchasing the pet store dog. I got my current dog, a Shiba Inu, through a rescue organization, and I have much to say about this as well.
I contacted them and said I would be willing to take on an older dog, and I preferred a female. Two weeks later, they had a dog for me and wanted me to come see the dog. Unfortunately, they pressured me to take the dog home lest she be euthanized, and neglected to tell me that she was a fear-biter, which I have been, these past five years, unable to cure her of.
A few times I considered putting her down (as she must be muzzled around other people), but so far have been unable to go through with it. I have had trainers evaulate her and say she was untrainable, my vet has prescribed Prozac for her (to no effect), and lately am trying some dog whisperer techniques, but in the end it seems that she should have been put down a long time ago. The rescuers, in their misguided thinking, simply fobbed the decision off on someone else (me), and I have been dealing with an unaffectionate, defensive biter ever since.
I have rescued other dogs and it worked out well, but I would certainly not repeat this experience again if I had it to do over. I say don’t even go see the dog unless you trust that the source will be honest with you about the dog’s personality. My next dog will be from a breeder, though I would consider a mixed breed also, if it had no aggression issues.
As your post explains, people buy from pet stores, puppy mills, uneducated hobby breeders, etc., because they don’t know any better. No one is buying from a “puppy store” to get a bargain (those puppy mill dogs are often priced over $1500), they’re doing it because that’s all they know. They may also be doing it because most city animal shelters are depressing — it’a a lot of pressure to know that the animal you don’t chose might be put to death. Those might be cop-out reasons as to why people often don’t think of adoption/rescue, but they’re REAL reasons, and they need to be acknowledged.
My complaint about “cranky blogger on other website” is that instead of listening to reasons why Joe Average might avoid pet adoption, she berated people for even listing those reasons. She then started to bash “purebreeds” completely, which made the discussion very personal and confrontational. I know she has a terribly stressful job, and that she’s spent her life cleaning up after irresponsible people, but she can only be successful in her work if she’s willing to educate. Education involves patience and understanding, not insults and threats, and it often involves compromise. I know from some of her blog entries that she’s pushed adopters away with her rigid thinking, yet she doesn’t seem to realize this. In her mind, the other person is always at fault.
You and I aren’t the problem. I’ve got enough rescued pets in my house to qualify for a “professional discount” from my vet, and you plan to adopt any future pets from a rescue group, so we’re already converts. We were trying to help the other blogger understand how people outside the realm of rescue think (as well as correct some of her blatant misstatements about good breeders vs. bad breeders), but she didn’t want to listen. She also wouldn’t admit that the pet overpopulation problem was largely caused by a lack of spaying/neutering, even though she’d previously listed it as the number one reason for crowded animals shelters! I was very hurt by some of the exchanges I had with her, but I’ve come to realize that I’m doing the best I can. I rescue, I foster, I educate, I volunteer, and I think purebreed dogs have a place in the grand scheme of things. If she doesn’t want to listen to an alternate point of view from someone else with a vested interest in saving animals, I’m going to just shrug it off.
My husband and I have long loved the White German Shepherd. But like the regular shepherds, they are being destroyed by so called knowing breeders, who are inbreeding.
I have loved wire-haired dachshunds for some time and after much research and spending time with papers scattered everywhere doing research, I flew to Germany and bought a puppy from a good breeder. Her lines are clean as the Germans do not allow line breeding or inbreeding and I have found a German beau for her here. I will breed her to strengthen the wire-haired lines here in the USA.
Yes, it is very true, what you don’t know can hurt you and the animal.
Don’t let these flamers keep you from spreading the word. Puppy and kitty mills are really bad things and pet stores should be outlawed. Maybe someday they will be.
Thank you for writing about this important and complex topic. It sounds like you are considering the many related sides and questions. Unfortunately, you are in the minority. Many people who are against irresponsible breeders tend to lump them with the reputable ones and globalize the evils of inbreeding, too many dogs, etc. Your definition is a fresh and welcome start in the right direction, I think, towards a more reasoned dialogue that focuses on the animals and not rhetoric. Bravo!
Your definition of a responsible breeder is a good start… I would add to that that breeders should be breeding for working ability when appropriate (obviously, lap dogs have no “working ability” other than being sweet, but if you’re breeding retrievers, they shouldn’t be afraid of ducks or of gunfire).
I disagree with the zealots who think all breeding should be banned. Personally, I don’t want to find myself living in a world where nothing is left but a homogenous puddle of mixed-breed dogs of indeterminate origin.
I’m really proud of the English Setter rescue group that I work with, because I’ve seen them, on multiple occasions, pour just as much time, energy and money into saving a mixed-breed “maybe Setter” as they have into purebred Setters. Admittedly, a lot of breed rescue groups don’t have that option, and I can’t fault them for focusing more narrowly when there are too many dogs and too little money, but I do love the fact that A&B isn’t quite so narrowly focused. Just recently, the group rallied behind Cooper, a “Basetter” (suspected Basset Hound/English Setter mix) who was in the running for “Basset of the Week” on the Daily Drool Basset Hound web site (he won… probably due to the influx of Setter people voting for him. 🙂 ). Cooper was an A&B rescue. They knew he wasn’t a Setter, but they got him out of the shelter, neutered, transported to a foster home, and ultimately adopted. Pregnant mothers have also been taken in and their puppies adopted out, and the puppies-of-unknown-origin are treated every bit as well by the group as the purebred dogs that the group was chartered to rescue. There are folks who just love Setters in the group, but there are also breeders… putting their time and money where it counts… helping dogs who don’t have breeders who’ll take them back.
I love the Setter personality… and I’ll foster again and probably adopt again once I’m settled into the new place (trying to foster while packing and moving would just be insane… I’m crazy, but I’m not that crazy!). I adore my Tollers and will happily go back to a reputable Toller breeder when I’m ready to add another redhead to my clan, so you won’t find me advocating to ban breeding, but I’m also a big proponent of getting a dog from rescue whenever possible.
The legislation issue is a sticky one… most proposed legislation is much too broad and either does no good or attempts to impose draconian restrictions on careful small-time hobbyists (the good guys) and even rescues. For instance, the PAWS legislation proposed by Senator Santorum was originally worded in such a way that rescue groups (because charging for adoption would qualify as “selling” more than 25 animals a year) would suddenly be classified as commercial pet dealers and subject to all the rules and regulations thereof, including licensing, inspections, having a certain amount of dedicated kennel space designed to certain standards (Hello? Most rescues place animals in foster homes to live in houses, not kennels, so that they’re ready to actually be adopted into a home, not a sterile concrete room). And while I’m confident that my house is a safe and loving environment for dogs, I do not want the government to suddenly have the right to make unannounced “inspections” of my “kennel” (aka my house) just because I foster for a rescue group. And if all rescuers suddenly had to pay commercial kennel licensing fees, we’d have a lot less rescuers, which is certainly not in the best interests of the animals.
The Cat Fanciers Association commented in their objection to the PAWS legislation that this would essentially put small dedicated catteries out of business, due to the fact that breeding queens are generally bred more than once a year (for a very limited number of years) since allowing them to skip cycles actually encourages pyometra and can endanger the health of the mom. But this could easily lead to a small cattery being over the seven-litters-a-year limit (four queens x two litters in a year) that qualifies as a “volume breeder” under Santorum’s HSUS, DDAL and PETA-supported legislation (and, since their litters average 3.3 kittens, those seven litters could total less animals than three litters of Lab puppies… it’s a very badly written law).
As for the issue of inbreeding… my input there would be that inbreeding and line-breeding shouldn’t be disallowed, but always done with care and consideration. Properly done, inbreeding or line-breeding can strengthen the good traits in a particular line and not double up on dangerous recessives. In some breeds, this is done to strengthen a particular trait (good straight fronts, or exceptional working ability, for instance)… in breeds where color genetics is a factor (I’ll use Persian cats as an example, since I know a breeder of lilacs, and her knowledge of color genetics is absolutely amazing to me, and the care that she takes to bring out the recessive color traits while still maintaining a healthy line of cats is just impeccable)… but we should also remember that “inbreeding” is a fact of life in small/rare breeds where you’re dealing with a small gene pool. I have Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retrievers, which now have a nice solid gene pool but which started from a small base and the breed was nurtured along by breeders who very carefully bred the limited number of available dogs to get the traits that they wanted. I expect that the situation is the same with Shibas, where again the breed was salvaged from a small number of original dogs. Ultimately, in small breeds, there’s no such thing as “no” inbreeding, because every Shiba in the world is related back to those initial three dogs… the trick is to be careful and conscious of the choices being made, and to study the coefficient of inbreeding and breed in such a way as to ensure genetic diversity as much as possible while still understanding that ultimately your choice is to breed related dogs or to lose the breed entirely.
Also… livinginmonrovia, I’m really sorry you ran afoul of a less-than-upfront rescuer and got put into your current situation. I have a lot of respect for the fact that you haven’t given up on your girl even after being saddled with much more of a challenge than you were anticipating. Thankfully, though, that is not the norm for rescue groups… while there are certainly bad apples in any crowd, there are also rescues who are impeccably careful about making sure new owners (a) know exactly what they’re getting and (b) know that they have support and a “fall-back plan” with the rescue group if something goes wrong. I’ve been involved for the last year with A&B English Setter rescue, which pulls English Setters out of kill shelters all over the country and evaluates them before placing them in adoptive homes. I’ve seen foster parents agonize over particular dogs and whether they’d be right for a certain family… I’ve seen families told that no, the dog you really want (based on picture, etc.) isn’t going to be right for your situation, but this other dog could be perfect, and I’ve seen the rescue take dogs back when a placement wasn’t working out. A good rescue, like a good breeder, will stand behind their animals… they’ll provide follow-up advice, rehoming if needed, and I’ve even known foster parents who’d get their former fosters back occasionally as boarders when the new family went on vacation. 🙂 As an example, A&B has a dog currently in a foster home who is desperately afraid of men. He’s okay with the occasional male visitor, but he’s a total mess if he and a man (or older boy) have to live in the same space together. So he’s fostering in a female-only household, and they’re very upfront in his description on the website that that’s the kind of family he needs to be adopted into. The foster mom is dedicated to keeping him until the perfect home is found, so he’s safe, and he’s learning to trust, and he just won’t be placed into an environment which would set him up to fail. Similarly, I’ve seen dogs moved between foster homes if it turns out that they’re not good with cats, or they’re too rambunctious to live with small children. Rather than being adopted out too quickly, and without thorough evaluation, they’ll be moved to a more appropriate foster home, and the information from both foster families will be used to determine the best adoptive placement.
Egads… this is much longer than I’d anticipated, so I’ll shut up now! One last plug, though… for people who have the space and the time (and some experience with teaching at least basic house manners)… consider fostering for a rescue group (either in your breed of choice or for a mixed-breed rescue). It’s very rewarding, and if you find that the absolutely perfect-for-you dog comes along, you can always “fail” fostering and adopt your foster-dog. 🙂
The person you had the disagreement with sounds particularly unpleasant. Some people never want to admit that they are wrong or that someone else might have a valid point of view.
To answer your question about “And what about the suburban housewife that wants her kids to see ‘the miracle of life?'”… that ties back into “I know education is KEY. I know companion animals should be spayed and neutered.”. If the suburban housewife can’t buy from a store or miller or backyard breeder, and has to instead get her little Fluffy from a responsible breeder with a spay/neuter contract, then she’ll hopefully get good information from the breeder on why that’s not a good way to teach that lesson (unless you also want to teach the kids about the “miracle” of their precious Fluffy dying from complications… or having puppies with birth defects who die or who have to be put down) plus she’ll have a breeder who’s following up and making sure Fluffy is spayed before she’s old enough to spawn.
Thankfully, early spay/neuter is becoming more accepted too, so breeders have that option if they’re the least bit concerned that a purchaser might not follow through on the agreement… and you can also use limited registrations or co-ownerships to ensure that somebody can’t just randomly decide to “recover” their cost of purchasing Fluffy by having and selling a litter of registered puppies. (But don’t get me started on all the pseudo “kennel clubs” started for the sole purpose of providing “papers” for otherwise-unregisterable puppies…. ARGH!… Schnoodles, anyone? *sigh*)
Janet – Thanks. And thanks for the link too. Sometimes inbreeding (to a degree) is necessary. Debbie covered that quite nicely in her comments.
barbie2be – makes me sad too. maybe you can foster a dog or volunteer to help a rescue organization!
livinginmonrovia – thank you so much for sharing. I believe you did the right thing also. My daughter wanted a pet store puppy once and as bad as we felt about leaving it there, we had to believe that not supporting that system was ultimately the right thing to do. I didn’t realize Sushi had such major issues. Shibas can be difficult even when they DON’T have problems. You are a great owner to keep working with her.
Leigh-Ann – I agree. I agree and I agree. 🙂
Maribeth – Thanks for visiting! You really went out of your way to do right by a breed you care about. That’s amazing. And, you are right, it is a shame about the GSD’s. I have seen and heard of so many with crippling hip dysplaysia because of the misguided quest for that sloped look. That’s the worst thing to ever happen to that breed.
Oh, Debbie G… your comments reminded me of the not-so-pleasant day a few years ago when I discovered there was a “kennel club” even for mixed breed dogs (I guess so they didn’t develop social anxiety issues about not having a pedigree on a piece of paper). This “club” was composed of people who felt it was their right to breed whatever and whenever they wanted, and that they didn’t need to be snobs like those AKC and UKC people (their words, not mine). They felt breeding was a perfectly acceptable hobby for anyone. The reason I discovered this club existed was because a relative bought a puppy from a “puppy store” (despite all warnings and admonitions against doing so), and paid $1200 for a dog “with papers”. The relative planned to breed the dog to “make her money back”, and the “kennel club” only encouraged this type of attitude. I went to their website just now and while they claim they exist to encourage “purity” in breeding, they also have a link on their homepage where people can find “rare breeds” like “labradoodles”. The relative did not breed her dog (perhaps it was after I lunged across the table at dinner and attempted to stuff a dinner roll down her throat to thwart her efforts), but the attitude that “anyone can breed” is still out there. My partner and I were in a local “puppy store” a few months ago (it’s right in-between the smoothie place and the pizza place so it’s hard to avoid), and we actually heard the owner tell someone who was buying a lab puppy to come back and buy a male puppy too so they could have “little lab puppies”. I’m sure she thought it was a generous suggestion, but it turned my stomach, and we’ve never been back inside.
I’ve always wondered why organizations like HSUS don’t have some public service announcements encouraging rescue/adoption and discouraging breeding? As everyone has indicated, the key to fixing some overpopulation issues is education, yet this is one national problem where education only seems to happen via word-of-mouth.
A note to “Living in Monrovia”, I had success using Buspar to resolve problems with a biting cat (redirected aggression — he’d get angry with another male cat in my house then come and bite me instead). I don’t think Buspar is contraindicated in dogs, so it might be another option to try besides Prozac. The cat calmed down, stopped biting me, and after about four months on the Buspar he seemed to have modified his behaviour so he didn’t bite me. I’m still cautious around him at times, but he’s off his meds and no bites in almost a year now. I’m sure you’ve read Dr. Dodman’s books, and I know he offers a few suggestions on medication to aid with behavioural modification. We also had some luck with “Comfort Zone with D.A.P.” diffusers for our dog with separation anxiety, and they could maybe have a calming influence on your dog. I appreciate that you’ve worked so hard with the dog, btw.
Aisha – Thank you so much for your comments. I really do want to learn as much about different people’s opinions and WHY they feel the way they do as I possibly can. There are a lot of sides to every issue and I think understanding them is the first step in doing something meaningful to make a difference.
Debbie – I agree that breeders should breed for working ability where appropriate. I think breeding for temperament should also be included in the definition. Zealots – good word. Moderation and compromise don’t seem to be in the vocabulary of a lot of “animal people,” but it seems to me that it takes compromise to accomplish anything broad. You made an especially good point about spay/neuter in your second comment. Over time, that would make a huge different all in itself. Can pet stores be required to sell only spayed/neutered animals I wonder? That would be great. As for the rest of what you posted… thank you, well said, and I’m glad you’re my sister. <g>
Jack – She was certainly closed minded and that’s being charitable. 🙁
Leigh-Ann – Honestly, the more I get to know you, the more I like you. 🙂
I also meant to say, in response to livinginmonrovia’s comments, that I think most good breeders have their animals spoken for long before they are old enough to leave home. However, if that weren’t the case, maybe pet store COULD sell local dogs. The puppies could be at the store for a few hours a day and then go home to their dam. Would that make sense?
The only thing I would add that I have not seen anyone say is that breeders’ No. 1 priority should be temperment. Obviously health, genetics, etc. are important but even a beautiful, OFA/CERF excellent, champion-bred show dog shouldn’t be bred if it doesn’t have a temperment that you want passed on to puppies.
Inbreeding has been used a lot in shiba inu breeding and often with good reason, so I would never say NO inbreeding. Though I have heard it is being used badly by poor breeders with other breeds.
This has turned into a great thread! Thank you, Leigh Ann, for your recommendations. I will ask my vet about Buspar and investigate Dr. Dodman’s books.
Debbie, I agree. Early on I called the rescue organization back, but they told me if I brought her back, because she would likely not get adopted by anyone else, that she would have to be euthanized.
Nycgg, I think your pet store idea is a good one. In line with what I was thinking. Spread the word!
I am sorry to hear about livinginmonrovia’s shiba. I can recommend a good behaviorist that may be able to help. I have been active in rescue. I have always given someone the option of returning a dog for any reason. I have manned rescue tables in pet stores with one of my own dogs to show people what is possible. It is better for the pups to stay with their mother and breeder for benefit of consistency and training. Sometimes people in pet stores handle puppies and kittens inappropriately. The breeder is also not obligated to sell to home not suited for the pup.
As a hobby breeder and rescuer, I screen potential adopters carefully, use spay/neuter contracts and take the dogs back if the owners are unable to keep them. My goal has been to place them in a loving lifetime home Many of the adopters have become friends.
As far as someone wanting to see the miracle of life, things don’t always go as they should. Mother and babies can and do die. The owner should be prepared for veterinary expenses. A emergency c-section can easily run $1000.
Then there are the shelters already full of homeless dogs and cats that will be euthanized when the shelter is full. If someone can’t bear to go into a shelter like this to adopt an animal, there is always a rescue or no kill shelter to adopt from. Then, a space will be made for the no kill shelter or rescue to help another animal.
LivingInMonrovia, the vet is Nicholas Dodman, and his books are “The Dog Who Loved Too Much” and “Dogs Behaving Badly”. I’ve only read the former, which seems to be criticized by some people for not being holistic enough, but the guy’s a veterinary pharmacologist so I don’t think it should be a surprise that he’s prescribing drugs and not Bach Flowers. Buspar came to mind because of my cat, but I also have a dog who takes Valium or Xanax because of severe thunderstorm anxiety (“severe” as in, “a danger to herself and others”), so there truly are a number of medications available to try. Dr. Dodman does consultations for a fee (a large fee, but I guess it’s worth it if it fixes a problem). His website is at http://www.tufts.edu/vet/facpages/dodman_n.html
NYCGG, thanks for this thread… it’s been a very interesting mix of perspectives and experiences and I’ve really been enjoying it.
Danelle, that’s true… but while I didn’t specify it (and should have), reliable temperament is key to working ability in the breeds that I have, so it’s just one of those unspoken “well duh!” points for me. But y’all can’t read my mind, so I definitely should have mentioned it! I have hunting dogs… for them to do what they’re genetically designed to do, they have to be bonded enough to their handler to want to bring the yummy bird back to the hunter instead of running off into the woods and having a snack. And for breeds which were never designed to be anything but pets (Pekingnese, for example, which gadgetgirl and I grew up with), they’re useless without a good temperament. Breeders breeding to the standard should automatically be breeding for temperament as well as structure and working ability.
My female Toller was originally a breeding prospect (she was pick puppy, co-owned with the owner of her dad), but she turned out to have a temperament that I couldn’t, in good conscience, perpetuate. So she was never bred, and I never regretted that choice.
livinginmonrovia, the attitude of that rescue is one that makes me crazy. They took responsibility for the dog when they brought her into rescue… they should have been willing to follow through on that responsibility. Unfortunately, yes, sometimes that means that dogs have to be put down… but that should only be the case if they have no potential for quality of life. Otherwise, they should be given the best life possible for the time they have left, even if that means “tying up” an experienced foster home by leaving the dog their permanently. Obviously they thought she was adoptable at first, or they shouldn’t have adopted her out to you. Unfortunately, none of that is helpful now, as they’ve obviously abrogated their responsibility to the dog and decided that guilting you into keeping her is better than having to deal with her themselves. *sigh* Again, I respect and appreciate that you’ve worked to give her a good life even though she’s not the ideal pet that you’d hoped for. Another thing that I would add to the suggestions already given by Leigh Ann is that you might want to have your girl’s thyroid levels checked (if you haven’t already). Increasingly, people are finding that there’s a link between thyroid issues and aggression in dogs (it frequently presents as a fairly sudden personality change, but since you didn’t get her until she was older, there’s no way to know if that’s what happened) and some owners have seen dramatic turnarounds in personality and aggression levels when the thyroid problem was treated.
As for the pet store idea, I could see having pet stores be a resource for putting breeders and puppies together, but unless the pet store is willing to do the same kind of pre-screening that reputable breeders do, it’s unlikely that breeders would leave the puppies there to be sold in their absence. But I could see stores holding events where breeders could let people meet their puppies (or even just meet their breeding stock and get to know the breed, if they didn’t have puppies at the time), similar to the adoption days that my favorite pet supply store holds on weekends (they don’t sell cats and dogs, but they provide store and cage space to rescue groups, who then manage the adoption process so that they can ensure that their requirements are being met). And yes, gadgetgirl, I think as part of that that the puppies or kittens should be spayed or neutered before they go home, unless they were going into a show home (but how many show homes would buy from a store?) and in that case they should be on a co-ownership contract so that the breeder maintains legal control.
Leigh Ann, I completely know what you mean about the mixed breed “registries”! As far as I’m concerned, the only good one is AMBOR, the American Mixed Breed Obedience Registry, which exists solely to provide owners of mixed-breed dogs with a venue in which to compete in obedience and agility. AMBOR was instrumental in getting UKC and some of the other performance venues to allow AMBOR-registered mixed breed dogs to compete, and AMBOR requires that the animal be spayed/neutered before it can be registered. All the registries that provide “papers” for all the various “chi” or “oodle” or whatever mixes are just vultures preying on the gullible American public’s assumption that the item with an official label (Izod, anyone?) is better than the plain unlabelled/unbranded version.
livinginmonrovia – Debbie, once again has out-thunk her younger sister (that would be me). I don’t know WHY I didn’t think of the thyroid thing. We just had a long conversation on Shiba-L (a mailing list) about this and hypothyroidism seems to show up in Shibas more than average as they get older and it does cause aggression in many cases. I will dig up some of the email and forward them to you.
For LivinginMonrovia….Another type of therapy that you might try with her is Tellington Touch. I have seen a quite fearful shibas become better over time. It takes love, patience, time and consistency. After awhile they learn they can depend on you keep them safe. Try everything slow and in baby steps.
As far as the discussion on temperament and inbreeding. Temperament has been one of the first thing that I have considered when deciding to breed. The last thing anyone needs is an unpredictable, mentally unstable dog.
Many breeds started out inbreeding to select for desired traits, but I don’t think it is any longer necessary if the gene pool is large enough.
Shibas and other native japanese breeds were almost lost due to breeding with other breeds imported to Japan. NIPPO was formed to revive interest in and preserve native japanese breeds.
Inbreeding became necessary after World War II when there were very few shibas left.
wow. I just want to say thank you to everyone that has contributed to this conversation so far and I hope there are a few more folks out there that will add their opinions also.
Next up… nycgadgetgirl tries to figure new and improved ways to (1) educate the public about how best to adopt or purchase a pet and (2) legislate that pet store animals have to be spayed and neutered.
And what about puppy/kitty mills? It will take a long time to get rid of the demand for their “products” by just educating the population one Joe Average at a time.
I have 2 shibas — one male just about to turn 4, and one female puppy. One of the advantages of supporting breeders is that you can go and see firsthand the conditions the dogs are kept in, AND can observe the temperments of not just prospective parents, but other kennel-mates. Esp. with a breed like Shibas, which have their own quirks anyways, there are huge differences in temperment from breeder to breeder. Any quirks or aggressiveness even with the best of training will continue to be issues, and can often amplify as the dog matures.
Our female came from a local breeder here, and in my experience, none of the breeders who care about the wellbeing of the breed would ever have their pups in a pet store, but will deal direct with the buyer, as they want to know where ther pups are going. In fact, there are a number that stipulate they take their dog back if you are no longer able to care for it, as they don’t want to see them go into a shelter.
One of the advantages of supporting local breeders with a good rep. is that you have some idea of what to expect when you look for a pup from a specific breed, both re. physical characteristics as well as temperment — this can be important for families with limited space, young children, or families that may not be able to accomodate large dogs, active dogs etc. with their lifestyle.
As you said, — THE MORE YOU KNOW…
And what about puppy/kitty mills? It will take a long time to get rid of the demand for their “products” by just educating the population one Joe Average at a time.
One good thing which came out of the events with “cranky blogger” was the suggestion to use microchips more. We still need to straighten out issues of frequency and chip encoding and which scanners read which chips, but assuming the business community resolves these problems, I think microchipping could help put a lot of puppy mills out of business.
I definitely think legislation requiring all puppy mills (and breeders) to microchip their dogs could make a big difference. Get the kennel clubs involved — make it a requirement that a dog who is registered with any club has to be microchipped with information about its origin, and any puppy mill licensed by the USDA has to chip all animals as well. Require pet stores to scan for chips before they accept new “stock”. Keep a central database recording which microchips were issued to which breeding facility, much like animal control keeps a central database of rabies tag numbers. If and when a dog or cat shows up at a shelter or rescue, find out the animal’s origin via the chip information, and require the person who bred the animal to either take it back, or to pay some sort of fee to support the animal while it’s in rescue. For example, when the dog from a puppy mill in Missouri shows up at animal control in Washington state four years later, it may not be practical for the puppy mill to arrange to have the dog returned, so instead they can pay a fee to help pay rescue/boarding fees until the dog is adopted. Continue the process ad nauseum… if that same dog unfortunately ends up at a shelter four times, make the puppy mill pay a fee all four times.
This suggestion obviously removes all owner accountability, because it assumes that an owner intentionally surrendered an animal. I don’t want irresponsible owners to get off so easily, but at least this method is the beginning to making owning a puppy mill a much larger responsibility than just “churning out merchandise”. I don’t know what puppy mill owners would do with dogs physically returned to them — perhaps they’d euthanize them if they’d been spayed/neutered, perhaps they’d use them for breeding if they hadn’t, or maybe they’d try to resell them, but I think it would make business sort of difficult. Of course, a puppy mill owner could always “go out of business” every few years to avoid their responsibilities, so then we could make sure the USDA gives licences for puppy mills to individuals and not to businesses. It’s a lot harder for an individual to disappear.
It sounds very Orwellian, and my gut says it’s distasteful to keep such close tabs on people. I always hate the political argument “if you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear from government intrusiveness”, because I do think excessive surveillence is creepy. On the other hand, we make doctors take responsibility for prescriptions they write via their DEA numbers, we make people responsible for their actions via license plates on cars, so why not use microchips to make dogs and cats a lifetime responsibility for the people to brought them into the world? The good breeders won’t mind the idea (many of them already insist on remaining as an alternate contact on a microchip), and maybe the puppy mills will find that it would just be easier to go into another line of work.
This suggestion won’t have any effect on the “miracle of life” breeders, and it doesn’t solve the problem of people who don’t spay/neuter and then let their animals roam free. Here in Vegas the latter issue is being tackled with fines — if animal control catches your pet and it isn’t spayed or neutered, you either have to allow it to be done, or pay for a special “breeders permit”. I don’t know if it’s working, but it’s a part of the puzzle.
Please feel free to point out the flaws in my plan (but please refrain from calling me a Communist, as I’m just Canadian).
What a thought-provoking post! Thank you for writing it.
I grew up with purebred dogs (Newfoundland, Collies, etc) and was quite pleased whenever I would see these breeds in the big dog shows that are televised from time to time. But over the years I noticed that the dogs I thought I knew were starting to change. The breeders (or those that make decisions about what traits are desirable in a breed) were morphing the dogs to suit the whims of fashion. For example, German Shepherds were getting shorter and shorter rear legs.
When I pointed this out to a friend who is quite knowledgeable about dogs she looked at me as though I had just woken up form a 20 year nap! She pointed out that Breeds like Boston Terriers, Bull Dogs and Boxers had terrible breathing problems because they had been bred to have flatter and flatter faces.
Other breeds had similar crippling defects because of so-called aesthetic breeding practices. She also pointed out the breeds that undergo cruel surgeries on ears and tails to conform to AKC standards.
>From that moment on I vowed I would never watch another dog show and certainly never buy another pure-breed dog. We now own a wonderful rescue dog who is mostly black lab with a bit of shepherd mixed in. She was a companion dog to an elderly woman for the first two years of her life, but when the woman went into a nursing home she found herself in need of a home. She is now 9 and is as loved as any of our children!
Hmmm… Upon rereading my comment I can see how some people who don’t know about my deep respect (blog crush) for NYCGadgetGirl could make the mistake of thinking I was being critical of her or anyone else who chooses to own a purebred dog. Let me make it clear that I was speaking only about a personal conviction I have adopted. Kinda like going vegetarian… not for everyone but often motivated by deeply personal feelings. 🙂
Leigh-Ann – I like the microchipping idea. That seems like something that responsible breeders would support since they already chip their dogs and will take them back if for some reason they need to be rehomed. I bet something like that would make a big impact on commercial breeders though.
I don’t think it’s too Orwelian. (It’s not like we’re talking about chipping the BREEDERS! lol) Companion animals can’t take care of themselves; it is reasonable for society to hold people responsible for the lives the create.
Combine this idea with making pet stores sell spayed/neutered animals and then add something like Las Vegas’s fines for un-fixed animals running around and I can see the beginning of change!
Treppenwitz – <blush> You’re too much. Jordan is a lucky dog to end up with you and your family when she needed a home. If more people felt like you, there would be fewer homeless dogs in the world. And you are right, there are numerous examples of breeds being bred for the wrong characteristics for the wrong reasons. We’ll add something about that to our definition of a responsible breeder.
“The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.”
I think you are a very wise person to acknowledge what you do not know, and pose the questions that you do not have the answers for. I think that you care very much for your pet and also for the welfare of animals in general – and it is a great thing to not only care deeply, but to care enough to continue to learn everything you can.
There are plenty of people out there with the best of intentions who only know what they know and wage their ongoing battle armed with just their knowledge, refusing to learn anything more. Good intentions can sometimes pave the way to bad things.
I think you do the right things. You learn and stay open to learning more, keeping in mind the larger picture. You are fair-minded and not petty. And you share the knowledge you have learned with people so that other people like you can learn more.
So keep on going the way you are, because as frustrating as it is faced with people like that, you are a great person to make changes in this world.
prajantr – can we be friends? ’cause you’re good for my ego. 😉
I’m always on the lookout for new friends. 🙂
Actually, I met a purebred Shiba Inu while on a business trip in Japan. It was a great dog in so many ways, and if we were looking to add to our family with that size dog I would definitely research Shibas.
I’m probably going to throw an entry up on my site once I have time to sit down and write something out, but for now I will say that I wholeheartedly agree with you. Living in Lancaster County, I’ve seen some horrendous puppy mills. Perhaps this is generalizing too much, but to me it seems like by stating that ALL breeders should be shut down because there are so many pets in shelters, that’s like saying couples shouldn’t procreate anymore because there are so many children needing to be adopted. Not that I think those children or pets shouldn’t be fostered and/or rescued, but those who are truly responsible breeders should not be forced to close down.
Ok, perhaps the procreation analogy was a bad one. This is what happens when I comment without really having the time to think my reply through properly 😛
I’m a bit late on this, but I liked your analogy, Ami. I probably don’t need to extrapolate more than that, but suffice to say that all the reasons people use to argue that dog breeding should be banned could also be used to argue that “people breeding” should be banned. The unfortunate thing is that “bans” only apply to responsible people, so the irresponsible among us would still be filling the animal shelters and the orphanages.
two experiences:
1) in college, my roommate found a dog in the streets of south central los angeles. and, as an irresponsible stoner, he thought it would be “fun” to take it home. ha! what a laugh. anyway, i got very attached to her. when i found out that campus security would probably put her to sleep, i spent the next 2 days searching for a shelter that would take her and not kill her. i was told by an expert on the phone that she was bred for match fighting… this made me despise breeding. (i finally kidded a shelter in santa monica – the ‘nice’ place where they don’t kill often – into thinking i found it close by … and saved its life.)
2) the dog i’ve had since 13 was bred. he’s a cocker spaniel and his name is guinness. i’m grateful for him everyday. he brings so much happiness to my family. especially my mother.