A couple years ago at a Shiba meetup in NYC, there was a young, female Shiba. She was a bit overwhelmed by the other dogs in the run. From what I remember, she was communicating appropriately with the other dogs… giving calming signals so they knew she wasn’t a threat, but also some warnings to keep them from crowding her. Another dog pounced on her anyway, she snapped at him and a tussle broke out. The female’s owner yelled at her, ran over, grabbed her, flipped her on her back and held her down, staring into her face. The other dogs were still right by them – over her – which must have made her feel extremely vulnerable and frightened. Her owner said something to the effect of her being aggressive and needing to respect him.
If she’d been my dog, I would have stepped between her and the other dogs, to let her know I was there to protect her and to break the attention of the dogs that were in her space. Hopefully, that would have given her more time to get accustomed to the situation and to gather the confidence to explore without feeling like she had to protect herself from overly boisterous dogs.
I think the primary difference between her owner’s take on the situation and mine was that he saw her actions as aggressive while I saw them as defensive. Was rolling her the right response if he was right? I don’t know. Did her owner even do it right? I don’t think so. I’m not sure what he really taught her that day, but I’ll bet it was not that she could count on him to protect her in new situations.
I think about this incident every time this training method comes up in conversation. I’m not a dog trainer, so I’m not qualified to offer recommendations on how other people should train their dogs, but it’s frustrating to see people misusing techniques that they see on television, hear about at the dog park, or read about online.
A couple weeks ago, someone posted to a Shiba mailing list that their otherwise friendly ten month old dog was becoming overly aggressive with their other dog and had bitten that dog and a couple of human family members during fights. There was no other information given about what was happening before the fights or about the other dog’s behaviour. One lister’s response was "I would put her on the floor and put your hand on her chest and don’t let go until she stops struggling to let her know that you are in charge."
This seemed like dangerous advice to me. My thoughts were that if a dog is not actually aggressive (like the one I remember in the dog run), rolling it would be uncalled for and just frighten and confuse the dog, which would damage the owner/companion relationship. If the dog is truly aggressive, the alpha roll might be effective but if the human doing the rolling doesn’t know what they are doing, they could easily get bitten in the process.
The dilemma stuck in my head, so I emailed Pete Campione of Kindred Souls Canine Center in New Jersey and asked for his thoughts on the alpha roll. Pete is an experienced dog trainer who teaches owners how to socialize their dogs and communicate with them. I’ve found Pete to have a special insight into aggression cases and I have a lot of respect for his ideas. This is what Pete had to say:
The Alpha Roll is a viable and integral part of canine communication and ritual. It has many versions hence ongoing debates. The Alpha Roll, like many canine rituals, must be done correctly and it takes time to learn as it requires a good "read" of canine body language (this means many people dismiss it rather than take the time to study the nuances of how to use it effectively). It is also done differently on puppies vs adults. The key to the "Roll" is in the release (loads of praise and precise timing) and the key to proper release is recognizing submission in the dog. Done correctly it is highly effective. But it must be done specific to the dog.
I guess I’m one of the people who has dismissed the alpha roll instead of learning about it. Funny… this post started off to be about how evil it is, but I guess I’ve learned along the way that isn’t the case. I’d like to learn more about it now – when it’s useful, when it’s not, how to do it correctly. The thing that REALLY bothers me though is that most people won’t learn those things… they’ll either dismiss it or use it incorrectly.
I wonder how often that happens with other training ideas?
And why does it seem that there are always more questions than there are answers?!?!? 😛
To learn more about Pete Campione and his training philosophies, visit the Kindred Souls Canine Center online.
From what I see in this breed, there are a lot of- and thanks to improper breeding- more and more dogs with fear aggression, and the alpha roll in these cases has got to be a very bad idea. I doubt very few people could do it correctly and in a correct situation and most will end up, like you said, putting a damper on their relationship, and not enabling their dog to let you take control when they are afraid. I see a lot of people, in general, still being too forceful with their animals. Even though it was how I was brought up, I never felt it was right and have since learned that the use of force hardly ever seems necessary in ANY relationship, dog and human too!
My Friends who have a particularly willful Weim use it, but at the dog run, I found all it did was cause the dog to get back up and do worse than it was doing before to get back into its order in the pack. I also wouldnt use it on either of my Shiba’s. Bear would think someone was going to hurt him like before and Lily works well with firm distraction and ” leave it ” ( usually with ” you don’t want that in your mouth anyway” under my breath:P). She is not fearful of dogs but continues to be scared of strangers.
But I did have a Bouvier Des Flanders that it worked really well on, she took it as, OK you’re in charge I’ll quit it. Which was a good job because she weighed 140lbs. However the technique was not forceful (more like a “down” and hold) unlike the “slam dunk” I have seem some people do. I agree with the trainers comment but I dont know if its a fit for many Shiba’s
I think the alpha roll has its place in training, but may be overused or used incorrectly.
There are many more subtle ways to assert necessary dominance, I think most dogs don’t need a full alpha roll. The very few times I’ve seen my dog do it, it is because there is another dog that is pestering him (humping or otherwise being a nuisance) that is not picking up on his signals to cut it out. He starts by giving them a look, then a little snarl or nip, walking away, and only when the dog is not picking up on any of those signs does he finally do the alpha roll. And he does it faster than a human could. The times I’ve seen a human do it, it is never preceded by subtler signs, and it seems to me to be “going nuclear” when it’s not really necessary.
Another concern, as I have a large strong dog, is that the owner could try to alpha roll and physically not be able to do it. A large smart dog could figure out that it is stronger than its owner. A real shakedown works just as well and doesn’t depend on the owner’s ability to physically force the dog into a position it is fighting.
I also agree with Rae, it would be counterproductive for behavior that comes from fear aggression.
Biggie-Zs latest blog post..Diary of a Kenneled Kuv (Day 1)
I made this mistake with my little guy and didn’t realize I was damaging the relationship, but I absolutely was. I was so nervous that my Shiba would be dominant and I wouldn’t be able to control him, that I REALLY abused my power when he was a puppy. I have a lot of personality traits that make me not such a great dog person, I get nervous very easily and I worry about what other people will think of me if my dog behaves badly. So I had read about Shibas and how willful they can be, so I tried too hard to be in charge to correct problems that didn’t require it. I finally figured out something about our relationship when we took a few growly dog classes at our local training club. They have an excellent program and I’m lucky to have found it. She taught me the warning signs of anxiety and I realized that my dog is very excitable and fearful, not aggressive just for the sake of being aggressive. After a few weeks of classes, I had to stop because I didn’t have time for training right then. When I stopped, I realized that I was no longer stressed out about the training and the dog’s performance, and I also realized that he was more interested in spending time with me. It all clicked. In my world, the relationship is most important to me. Not training, not being able to go to the dog park (which we never really corrected fully with larger dogs, he still goes on the offensive), but having a relationship is why I have a dog. He doesn’t trust me to protect him, and I can’t say that I blame him, but I’m really trying to act as a protector now and see if we can fix that over time. I started the relationship not realizing that he needed to be protected. I thought he needed to be put in his place. But he’s never been dominant and that finally clicked when I saw a dog that actually was dominant on Cesar Milan’s show. That dog was NOT aggressive, but Cesar did get bitten because the dog was trying to roll him to take over. And you could see the difference from other cases he’d done. This was pure dominance, the dog was just trying to get physical control of Cesar, not trying to hurt or scare him. So many times, Cesar talks about being the pack leader, but I think it’s more about the human feeling calm and in charge, rather than physical domination of the dog. Anyway, I’m going on and on, but this is obviously a subject I feel strongly about, and I want to help people who place rescue Shibas learn all they can about educating people about Shibas because I had it all wrong.
My first training experiences came from a school that preached alpha rolls for any kind of disobeying. I soon learned how much that and the other aversive methods of that school were killing my relationship with my dogs. Since then I have been trained in the proper place for alpha rolls, and honestly I have only ever used it once since that training and I probably could have used something else if I have thought a little longer about the situation.
Just about every situation I have ever seen someone do an alpha roll in was a situation where simple distraction and redirection would have worked just fine.
Sadly with dog training now a tv evening spectacle, more and more dogs are put through it unnecessarily. More and more people are hurting relationships or getting bitten in the process. Personally I think this is the greatest loss of all. Owners who simply want to fix a behavior that makes life challenging, are over disciplining their dogs because of what is seen on tv, and time and time again, myself and other trainers are contacted to fix the damage which to often is a dog who has turned to biting.
This is interesting. I’ve never thought to use a technique like that in a dog park. In a dog park there are just soooo many variables like how dogs greet each other, the energy, the fact that there are unstable and hyped up dogs who do not know how to say hello and other factors… I don’t know if an alpha roll there is right… UNLESS your dog greeted another dog with immediate aggression. Which doesn’t sound like the example you gave here.
This reminds me of when I took karate. I have an awesome teacher who taught us to only use it to protect/defend and also as soon as you could – run like hell. Then he moved and the replacement teacher was a douche. He said “when they’re down, keep ’em down!” and I quit – months away from being a black belt… and yes, that bugs me… but at the same time how could I believe that?!? Why would I want to actually seriously injure someone just out of showing I could? and why would I ever aggressively scare the crap out of my dog?
If my dog got into a fight, which I’ve broken many up in my time at the shelter and dog daycare – You split them, you take yours away if you can, and ask the owner of the others to sep theirs too… so that you can either walk your dog out of there or just distract them and check for any cuts. Of course, sometimes you have to tackle a dog… but that’s another story for another time.
Thanks everyone for such great input and insight! I like Kat’s correlation to martial arts… just because we CAN overpower our dogs, doesn’t mean we should.
Michelle – I know you’ve worked really hard to learn and adjust since Shimi came into your life. I’m sure he knows and loves you all the more for doing it.
I can’t imagine a situation where I would ever use – or approve of a trainer using – the alpha roll with a dog of mine, but at least I’ve learned that it is has valid uses, depending on the dog in question. That’s probably the more important point… not only does a person need to understand the psychology behind the roll and the technique to do it properly but you also have to really understand the individual dog before you can decide whether it is called for or not.
Hi…
My husband and I have a 3 month old Wheaton Terrier. He nips and “bites” which I basically thought was a “puppy thing” When we went to training last night, the trainer was appalled when Mosby nipped at us and immediately employed the Alpha Roll. He is a strong advocate of this method and has instructed us to each do it twice a day for 5 minutes to let Mostly know who is the “Alpha”. It seems so heartless…what are your thoughts?
Thanks…Sonie and Doug Horstman Spostylvania, VA
Hi Sonie and Doug,
I’m so glad you found this entry. I hope you read all the comments and also found other sites online about this subject.
I highly recommend that you find a different trainer. Look for a trainer who uses primarily positive training methods. The alpha roll has it’s place, but not with a puppy. In my opinion, ANY trainer who would immediately roll a dog without getting to know it first, doesn’t know what he’s doing. Also, the idea of doing it for a prescribed amount of time a certain number of times per day is ridiculous. Pete Campione, who I have a LOT of respect for as a trainer, made it very clear to me that the key to a correct alpha roll is the release. What your trainer told you to do is the exact opposite.
A good place to start looking for a trainer is the Certification Council for Pet Dog Trainers.
Good luck with Mosby! I’d love to hear about your progress.
Hey Jenna, Was skimming your old articles and I wanted to add this information to this one. A lot has changed in the training world in 4 years and I wanted to leave some more accurate information.
Dr. Yin’s Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog
New Study Finds Popular “Alpha Dog†Training Techniques Can Cause More Harm than Good
http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/new_study_finds_popular_alpha_dog_training_techniques_can_cause_more_harm_t
Thanks Molly! That is a very informative article.