Having grown up in the rural south, the first time one of my New Yorker friends mentioned doggy daycare to me, I was astounded. Why would you pay for such a thing??? Heh. Little did I know that in a few short years I would be doing exactly the same thing! (See Snick’s recent post about how he spends his days for more info on that.)
Shibas being Shibas, I’ve met a lot of people over the last few years who were surprised Snick goes to daycare, but HE LOVES IT! His daycare in Chelsea called him "a party animal" because he would come in the door a bundle of non-stop energy and keep it going till I showed up to get him 11+ hours later. He had just as much fun at his daycare in Indiana as well. I was worried the first day I took him… he’d grown up at the daycare in Chelsea, but I wasn’t 100% sure how he would react to a room full of new dogs in a new place. I shouldn’t have worried. Snickers = PARTY ANIMAL at daycare anywhere apparently. I went out of my way to take him to daycare occasionally there, even though I was home all day, simply because he enjoyed it!
I feel like going to dog runs and to doggy daycare was an important part of Snick’s socialization and part of why he’s so good at handling different situations. On the other hand, I realize what I first thought about “they’re pack animals, they should play in groups” doesn’t necessarily fly. Throwing a bunch of random dogs together in an enclosed space (run or playroom) is about as non-pack-like as you can get. A pack is like a family with a cohesive structure, rules and hierarchy. A playgroup may work out some quick and dirty rules, but nothing long term. I wonder if everyone other than the extremly self-confident dogs must feel very overwhelmed in situations like that. I’m not really sure and it makes me wonder if daycare may be right for a much smaller percentage of dogs than I originally thought. (Case in point: Secret is uneasy at the dog run and would most likely HATE doggy daycare.)
So, what do you guys think about doggy daycare?
- Do you use a daycare?
- Why or why not? How often?
- Do you think your dog enjoys it or do you only do it out of personal necessity?
- How do you deal with the vaccination requirements?
- Do you worry about aggressive dogs at daycare?
- Do you check in on your dog a lot or just let him party?
Do tell!
I worked at a doggie daycare and shelter – and what I found was- a shelter was easier. At doggie daycare if the place isn’t set up in a way to allow the dogs time away from each other, arguments happen that are so fast and crazy that it’s almost impossible to break them up before someone got a nip or cut on their ears.
Also since there are so many unstable dogs in the world due to either owners who don’t quite know how to train their dogs and exercise them and others who baby them – some of the dogs were out of control and didn’t know how to play nice with other dogs. They’d run around, knock the others over, not read the other dogs’ body language, and in the end – have to be taken out and crated.
I think daycare is great – conceptually – I think it helps the dogs socialize, get some energy out, make friends, and get used to strangers – but you need the right facility and it’s hard to know what is “right.”
The aggressive dogs that would come in sometimes had to be banned because they always started fights and were so insecure or uneasy that they sometimes bit the handlers. Those dogs would prob do well in a sep run or pen where they could just nap, walk around, and not have to deal with overwhelming group of other dogs.
We also had super shy dogs that were more people oriented than dog and would sometimes jump the pens and just follow us. Those guys I felt bad for – you could tell they had had enough playtime and wanted to just snuggle or go for a walk with one of us instead. One dog that sticks out in my mind is a pitbull who used to be my shadow and she was so well-behaved. But she would constantly jump out of the enclosure and just want to follow me. She didn’t jump on me, play rough, or do anything bad. If I bent down to pet her she gave kisses and would sit. If I ignored her, she just walked behind me and would eventually find a corner to nap.
I think a daycare would need several types of enclosures to make sure dogs were in proper groups and could also be moved around if energy levels changed throughout the day. Also a sep room with no dogs and just crates or pens is necessary for those dogs that need a time out or nap.
I think it’s a good idea and could work. I’d love that option for Yoshi but there aren’t many here in the Phoenix area that i’m aware of.
I could possibly talk his “grandmother” in taking him but that would add atleast another 1 1/2 hours to my daily commute.
I think Kat brings up some really good points!
i LUVS both my daycares. the one i went to most my life had more rooms. it was really small but we dogs were divided into rooms by size and temperament. when i first went there they tested me out with the calmer smaller dogs (i was but a pup) and then moved me into a crazier room after they got to know me. ^-,-^ i loved that rowdy dog room and went there every time for years. we didnt have anywhere to get away from the other dogs and rest but the peeple watched all the rooms and would take us up front or move us around so we were all in a good place for our mood.
my daycare in indy was a lot bigger and had all the dogs in one big playroom. there were always peeples in the big room with us too which was different and good. they had little rooms for us to be alone if we needed a break.
Jenna,
My situation turned out to be like what Kat said earlier… Scout was in a doggy daycare (a real popular & pricey one) which was essentially a house crowded with a bunch of dogs. There were 3 rooms all connected to each other with couches, pillows and dogs roaming from 1 room to the next as they pleased. She had no limits on the number of dogs she would take a day. At first, Scout was excited when we would pull up and I would drop him off, he would yodel and act all alert, tail wagging, to get out. I think we went for a total of 4 visits. Yep, a fight broke out and part of his ear was torn off. She called me at work and told me it was no big deal, a little blood but that it had stopped.
When I picked him up, his ear was worse than I thought and I showed him to hubby. We agreed he needed stitches and took him to a good vet. Long story short, it did end up getting infected and needed 2 rounds of antibiotics. The owner was mad about the vet bill ($500), did not want to pay it and argued that if she thought that I had wanted vet care, she would have taken him some place closer to her that was cheaper. When we sent her a legally-written letter the third time of going around with her, she finally paid up. Yes, i complained to the city too about the lack of regulation and zoning. They approved her increasing her hours anyways due to her popularity with other dog owners.
So – to sum it up, you really need to check the day care facility over, see how they operate. Do they have a limit on how many dogs? Are there places for dogs to go where they can get a time out from other dogs? The best places are more like gymnasiums with lots of room and webcams where owners can check on their dogs. Also, a lot of shibas have issues with fear aggression (and unfortunately Scout has a bad case of it now) so the dog’s disposition needs to taken into consideration too… Thanks for bringing the issue up Jenna… Happy to hear Snicks loves his place!
I worried a LOT about aggression when I first started Snick to both of his daycares. Luckily they were both really well managed and we never had any bad experiences. I don’t walk him as often or as far as I used to (this job, the hours… ugh), so I think that when T gets home at the end of the summer, I’ll find a new daycare here in JC for him to visit once every week or two. He really seems to enjoy it. I know I’ll worry like crazy the first few times he goes though!
I think the key is to find a place that is willing to pay enough people to be there and supervise the dogs. If they skimp on personnel then (1) they can’t watch all the dogs and intervene if necessary and (2) they’re probably more concerned about their profit than the actual welfare of the dogs. I love Kat’s suggestions that there should be multiple ways for dogs to spend their time – in groups, alone, with people, etc.
I used to take Winnie to doggie daycare a lot (3 times a week) when she was approximately 7 months – a year old. She loved going to daycare and made quite a few friends. There are only two “cons” that I’ve found – #1 is that she sometimes holds going to the bathroom since she doesn’t like emptying out in a community/smallish area. It would be best if they also took them out to walk, but they don’t at our facility. #2 – she ended up getting bronchitis (vet didn’t know if it was kennel cough) twice. She was a bit younger when this happened and since it’s happened we’ve tapered back our frequency of visits.
She hasn’t gone to doggie daycare in quite some time now – it’s been about 2 months now. However, we’ve never had any problems with dog fights – as they do an excellent job at supervising the dogs. The areas are very large – and there are four different large pens and the dogs are sorted out by size and energy levels. Winnie would be placed with medium sized dogs in the morning, and then with the smaller guys in the afternoon. (The small dog pen has comfy dog beds.)
I didn’t ever get too nervous – especially since the daycare facility is only a block away from my office. And, they called once when Winnie kept scratching at her ears, and I rushed to go get her. It turned out it was allergies. It’s reassuring when they pay attention to the little things – and even though it ended up not being serious, at least they noticed it and notified me about it. I love that about the daycare that we go to.
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Henry and Chad go to doggie daycare once a week – on Mondays. They’ve been using the same dogwalker practically since I first got Henry over two years ago. She is great, and I trust her completely. They stay at her house when I go out of town. A few months ago, she opened a doggie daycare at her house. It seemed like a great thing for my two. Chad has occasional separation anxiety, and it always seemed to be worse on Mondays – I assume b/c we spend so much time together over the weekend. He would have multiple accidents in the apartment on Mondays. So, when she started the daycare, we decided to try sending them on Mondays.
It’s worked great. Not only is my house accident-free on Mondays, Chad is also fine on Tuesdays because he’s still so tired from daycare that he can’t work up the energy to be anxious. By Wed., my leaving in the morning is old news again, so still no anxiety.
I never worry about aggression for a few reasons: 1) she limits the number of dogs she takes and never bends that rule; 2) she is well-staffed; 3) her house has lots of rooms, and she trusts Chad so lets him wander upstairs to be by himself if the other dogs get to be too much for him. In the time that they’ve been going, though, Chad has started to retreat from the other dogs less. He’s initiating play and sometimes could even be described as a party animal, but nothing like YOU, Snick! Chad has taken a long time to learn to play with other dogs, so it’s exciting to me to see video of him playing and hear stories of him running around and acting silly at daycare.
I’ve never taken either Chelsea or Kaiser to doggy day care. The main reason for this is because my hubby doesn’t feel it’s necessary since we make a lot of time to be with them.
But I’ve considered it.
I have to admit that one of my biggest worries for Chelsea is that she just doens’t like to socialize, especially not with small dogs that are frenetic and energetic. She only likes to play with big dogs if she’s in the mood and most of the time she’d rather sleep in her older years. She prefers hanging out with our cat, Darren, instead.
Kaiser is kind of confusing. He’s shown that he plays very well with others Sometimes. For example, we have no worries when he play’s with his buddy, Dakota, a Shiba owned by a good friend. 🙂 Dakota isn’t agressive really, and gets along with just about any dog. Kaiser being fairly dominant and a touch aggressive, Dakota seems to handle it just fine. A little Dachshund visitor named Epsilon is very aggressive and insecure. Upon taking a walk with Kaiser at a neutral territory park – Kaiser almost ate Epi. So at first we thought it was just that we couldn’t put Kaiser with dominant aggressive dogs – but nope, Tango came over to visit and Kaiser is perfectly fine with him. Tango is a K9 artner for an NYC detective and is both dominant and aggressive as they come. So long story short – we just haven’t figured out which dogs Kaiser will like versus which dogs Kaiser won’t.
I guess I worry very much about agression. I’m never sure how Kaiser will react and haven’t got enough practice yet not to transfer my worry to Kaiser through the leash – aggravating the issue. We already know Chelsea will snap to get her space. So we figure it’s just as well that Kaiser and chelsea don’t go to doggy day care while we work out their socialization training. Work in progress.
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I think we sometimes confuse aggression, dominance, and normal dog corrective behavior because we can’t always tell what they are thinking. Dogs that are unstable have to be told with growls and sometimes physical control how to behave. But just like people, not all dogs have the same ideas about how to behave. The aggressive and insecure Dachshund is not a leader and is being defensive. That is not acceptable behavior, and even another fearful dog will react by correcting it, I’ve witnessed this with my dog even though mine is often the fearful aggressive one in most groups. Tango on the other hand sounds more like a leader and is corrective or controlling more than aggressive. It’s just a guess and an example since I didn’t witness any of it, but my dog is much more likely to follow around a dog that is in control and sometimes has to use corrections, where he will attack a dog that is out of control, even if the humans think that dog is happy. (Although he’s met enough dogs that don’t listen to his warnings to leave him alone that he pretty much wants to attack any dog he doesn’t know lately.) The thing that still amazes me is that a walk together before allowing the dogs to go nose to nose can settle Shimi enough that he can coexist with another dog when he has to. He doesn’t always happily accept the other dog, but the walk stops him from going on the offensive. From time to time we have to resort to kenneling at Happy Tails, they let the dogs all roam a large room with human supervision and a large outdoor artificial turf yard, and there are large and small dog sections of the place. They have a get acquainted area where they leave the latest arrival for at least 15 minutes so they can get used to the situation, it has an iron fence so there is the ability to interact without getting hurt or overwhelmed. This seems to really help, they’ve never reported that he had to be separated from the group or was too aggressive to go in. I’m also sure he doesn’t sleep the entire time he is there, always on guard. They have cages where they feed the dogs so that everyone is safe while they eat, and if they have to separate the dog, there is another room where they can be caged for a time out. This situation seems a little less volitile than a dog park where dogs rotate in and out constantly. We can’t do the dog park anymore because the “emotions” there are just too high. I realized the other day that Shimi’s aggression would be like a human walking up to another person and being greeted with “GET OUT OF MY FACE OR I’LL BEAT YOU TO DEATH RIGHT HERE!” I think it’s safe to say that just about everyone would turn around and walk away, but other dogs don’t do it, they just keep coming. They say that increasing domestication takes away a dog’s ability to communicate with other dogs and that is the ultimate example. The one time I stopped the other dog with citronella spray, Shimi stopped snarling and just stood behind me. It took several sprays and lots of commanding the dog to go home before it decided that we weren’t interesting enough to get sprayed again. What is the motivation that would make a calm dog approach a snarling whirling dervish? I’ve gone a little off-topic, sorry. 🙂
Masako – Sounds like you have a great daycare for Winnie! With both the daycares we’ve used, I actually made sure they would NOT take Snickers outside the facility for a walk. I only trust a very, very few people to handle him on a leash. He holds it in daycare too though… the first thing he does when we walk out the door is pee.
Hocomo – I can’t even TELL you how happy it makes me when you talk about Chad enjoying daycare! Words don’t suffice.
prajantr – Chelsea and Kaiser have each other (and occasionally Dakota) plus they get to spend time with you and hubby. Sounds like they’ve got it made without daycare. 🙂
Michelle – LOL, yes, you got a little off topic, but not entirely. All of the emotions and the “rules of engagement” that come into play with dogs in groups is an important part of the daycare conversation. The shifting population in daycare – and even more so in dog parks as you mentioned – makes it harder for dogs to sort all that out and settle into a hierarchy like they would in a more permanent grouping.
Regarding the relationship between domestication and communication, Stanley Coren’s book How Dogs Think discusses neoteny and language abilities in canines. Temple Grandin’s latest book Animals Make Us Human does also apparently, but I haven’t read it yet.
Now that Dad is gone and the dogs are home alone, I’ve been thinking of having a dog walker come in … but then I think I should just go home and do it myself! It’s hard to tear myself away from work tho…
hey, that picture looks familiar! 🙂
ALERT ALERT
MISSING PHOTO CREDIT!!
I’m a schmuck. 🙂 That is definitely one of your photos from when you visited the NYC Shiba Meetup group and met me & Snick!
LMAO! I remember that one cause someone asked me on flickr if a dog’s tail had been pulled off!
I think all dog daycare facilities need a full time professional Dog Behaviorist on staff working with the dogs at all times, not just hiring a bunch of young adults who don’t have any certification or proper education to deal with dogs and dog behavior. My dog became aggressive after being at Daycare by not being introduced properly to other dogs.